This site is about the "2x2 Church" which arrogantly calls itself "the truth."
They want you to believe that their church has been around "since the beginning."
But they will lie in order to convince you. The truth is, this church started in 1897.
This site tells the truth about "the truth" since those in charge of "the truth" do not.

Excommunication Sounds Like This

About these recordings

Clip #3 (9:11)
Beep (rustling, not able to make out the first few words)

Marlene: Jim - Jim, and um...Gwen...

Jim: We are asking you for a yes or no answer.

Marlene: Jim and Gwen, the magnitude of this, you know...understand that this is crucial.

Jim: All you have to do is say yes or no.

Marlene: We can't answer that...You know, um, Jim and Gwen, you have to understand that we have a business to run. Um, we have to make a living; we have to work for a living.

Jim: This has nothing to do with that. This is standing behind...

Dale: This is...and we, uh

Marlene: Ok, but what you asked us yesterday...

Jim: ...and you agreed....

Marlene: But, um, um, Gwen and Jim...you came into our home and made this accusation about us, about John and Shirli, allowing them into our home. What we...you...and because we did that, we were given this ultimatum...um, that...we...we were shocked that you gave us, that you said that if we allow them into our home then we are, um, the meeting is taken and we are...we are no longer a part of this fellowship.

Jim: This was you folks that set 8 o'clock this morning...

Marlene: But in...

Jim: ...for your decision, it was not us...

Marlene: But Jim, um and Gwen...

Jim: Marlene....

Marlene: Just

Dale: Just...just...Jim, Just one minute...

Jim: No, you've been talking steady...

Marlene: Ok, go ahead, you go ahead...

Jim: You, you folks set 8 o'clock this morning...

Marlene: We feel...

Jim: ...for the decision and you also said that you would give us a yes or no answer, a simple yes or no answer...

Marlene: Um...

Jim: ...and you also told us that you would give us the name of the other overseer that you talked to.

Marlene: Over - no, we talked to - we - no-no not overseer...we talked to

Dale: It's overseers

Marlene: We talked to...we, have talked to

Jim: You talked to Dale, and you gave us his name...

Dale: it...and, and...it's overseers still

Jim: ...what's the other overseers name?

Marlene: But, Jim, one thing...

Jim: ...(unintelligible...) Marlene, you said that...

Marlene: Ok, um, one thing you need to understand, is when we spoke to Dale Shultz, it was before the meeting, uh, that was held at Veitch's. It was before that meeting. So when we talked...

Jim: You never told us that.

Marlene: Oh, well I can tell you what day we talked to him, Jim.

Jim: Well, you never told us that yesterday.

Marlene: Jim, I can...

Jim: You made us to feel that he was in support of you?

Gwen: That's right.

Jim: That's right.

Marlene: Ok.

Jim: What you did in your home.

Marlene: We said...we said...that's what we said, did we...that Dale Shultz said?

Jim: There are three things that Dale supported you in...

Marlene: Um...

Dale: Um...we told you, Jim...that,

Marlene: We talked...

Dale: that...

Marlene: We talked to overseers, Jim.

Dale: And we told them that the decision was to be spirit-led by us. That is what we told you.

Jim: You said that these peop-these overseers told you that these people would be welcome in their province for fellowship.

Marlene: Um, Jim?

Jim: You told us that, Marlene.

Gwen: Yes, you did.

Marlene: Ok, ok, just one second...

Jim: You told us that.

Marlene: But, Jim...

Jim: You also said that they told you that it was up to you to make the decision as to who would be in your home.

Marlene: oh, no, no, no, no, no,

Jim: You said that...

Dale: Yes...

Marlene: Gwen, Gwen, we never said that, did we?

Jim: Yes, you...

Dale: We might have, Marlene.

Marlene: Dale, we never told him...

Dale: ...that the decision was gonna be

Marlene: ...up to us...who...

Jim: (unintelligible)

Marlene: Who...who manages our home?

Dale: They told us that it had to be Spirit-led. So...

Marlene: Yeah...

Dale: So, that is up to us.

Marlene: And...we said...

Dale: Yeah, that's right.

Jim: You also told us that putting sheep, or people, out of fellowship would kill the sheep.

Marlene: Yeah...

Jim: you told us that.

Marlene: No, we never...we said....we said...

Jim: You told us that.

Marlene: Um, Jim...

Jim: Marlene, you did!

Marlene: Jim?

Jim: And please don't (back...)

Marlene: Jim? Jim, are you listening to anything that we say?

Jim: I've listened, and you have promised to give us a yes or no answer and you set the time for 8 o'clock...

Dale: So, Jim, you won't give us a letter, in writing?

Jim: ...and you also told us that you would give us the second overseers name...

Marlene: No, no...we didn't...

Dale: ...and you didn't...did you say...that...

Marlene: Jim?

Dale: ...did you, uh, you said th-that we would not give you...you would not give us a letter...

Jim: No...

Dale: Ok...

Jim: what we said...what we said is that we...

Dale: Ah, no...no, we just asked you right now.

Jim: ...stand behind what you wrote.

Dale: Just right now...would you give us a letter?

Jim: No.

Dale: No.

Marlene: Ok. Jim, just one second here,

Dale: ...would you...

Marlene: ...um, we...we would, if we said that we only talked to two overseers,

Jim: That's what you said.

Marlene: We, um, no, we didn't.

Jim: You said that.

Gwen: Yes, you did.

Marlene: Ok

Dale: We've talked to more than two.

Marlene: But we've talked to more than two.

Jim: You said you took a consensus and you had...

Dale: Yes

Marlene: Right.

Jim: (...unintelligible...talked to two overseers...)

Marlene: Right, ok, but here's the thing, Jim....

Jim: ...you lied to us...

Marlene: Jim, Jim?

Jim: Marlene, you lied to us.

Marlene: Jim, we did not lie to you! I am t-...

Jim: ...yes, you said...

Marlene: Jim!

Dale: Jim...Jim...Marlene, Marlene...Jim, would you give us, um, uh, more time?

Jim: No.

Marlene: You...

Jim: You set the time for 8 o'clock this morning...

Dale: So -

Jim: ...you had, you said that you would give us a yes or no answer.

Dale: So you wo - you won't consider giving us more time...

Jim: No.

Dale: ...to think about this.

Marlene: Because Jim, this matters....

Dale: This matters to us.

Marlene: And, and, when come and...

Jim: ...it's a matter of standing behind this ministry or not...

Marlene: Um,

Jim: ...and if you have to break your word ...to...have more time...

Dale: Yeah.

Jim: Then, no.

Marlene: Jim?

Dale: Then you're, you're saying no?

Marlene: Jim, Jim, can we tell you something? We had company last night, we worked all day, we hadn't eaten supper at nine o'clock...because of this major situation.

Jim: Well, we never invited your company over.

Marlene: No, we didn't either. We did not know they were coming. They came unexpected. But,...

Jim: Well, that has nothing to do with us, Marlene.

Marlene: I know, we understand that. We, we totally understand. But a, a decision of this magnitude, Jim...and Gwen, you must understand that we have, we have to work! We, we left...we are just reeling over this...we have got to...

Jim: You were reeling yesterday...you were in a pretty wild state

Marlene: Well, Jim, I will have to tell you...um, what you and Gwen...

Dale: This, this is important to us.

Marlene: This, this matters to us.

Jim: We are holding you to your word, so are you gonna to support your word?

Marlene: Of course we'll support our word, but have you ever, have you ever needed...

Jim: ...a yes or no answer...

Marlene: Jim? Have you ever needed more time on such a major decision?

Jim: Not on this kind of a decision, no.

Dale: Have you ever had to have major...uh, time on major decisions?

Jim: Not on this kind of a decision. No. This is yes or no on whether you will support the ministry.

Dale: So uh, you are saying you are gonna, you're going to do something?

Jim: We are saying that we are asking you to uphold your word and give us a yes or no decision.

Marlene: And, and, Jim, we are asking you, we have one request...

Jim: ...and we are not accepting it...so therefore we are asking you to keep your word

Marlene: Uh, Jim?

Jim: So give us your word, yes or no.

Marlene: We cannot answer, we cannot answer that without more prayer. We have got to have more time for prayer and meditation.

Jim: That is a no.

Marlene: Sigh...Well, Jim, if it's a no, then you and Gwen have decided it for us.

Gwen: No, you, no.

Jim: No.

Dale: Yes you have.

Marlene: Yes you have, Gwen!

Jim: No.

Gwen: If you will not say yes, then it's obviously a no....

Marlene: We have not had enough time to pray about this and to meditate about it, for something that will effect us eternally. We have got to have more time.

Dale: I should mention to...

Jim: ...(talking over Marlene and Dale, unable to decipher)...you set the 8 o'clock this morning and you told us also you'd give us the name of the other, singular, overseer,...

Marlene: ...Ok...

Dale: ...Jim and, uh...

Jim: ...so please give us that...

Marlene: Ok, Jim, Jim, Jim,

(Unable to decipher, as Jim, Marlene and Dale were all speaking at once)

Jim: ...(so please give us that)...

Marlene: Dale, can I, I just want to clarify one thing, um,...

Jim: ...so please give us that...

Marlene: Um, Jim, when we were talking to you yesterday, we had visited with Dale Shultz before this, uh, ever happened, it was the day...

Jim: ...and when you told us that, you used it in context with your present situation.

Marlene: Ok, well you, you surmised that. We never said it. Well,...

Jim: But you told us that we read you the statement

Marlene: Listen,

Jim: ...that you, that you told us...

Marlene: Ok.

Jim: ...that was in connection with...

Marlene: Jim?

Jim: ...your situation and your meeting.

Marlene: Jim?

Dale: Jim,...

Jim: ...you used it for that.

Marlene: Jim, listen. We said to you, we had a visit with Dale Shultz. We did not divulge what was in that meeting. We visited with Dale at the time of Martin's mother's funeral...

Jim: ...you...

Marlene: ...which was before this ever happened, one week ago Saturday.

Dale: Marlene, we're not getting anywhere, so....

Jim: (talking over Dale and Marlene, unable to decipher).

Marlene: Ok, um,

Jim: ...to support yourself, and now you're backing into...

Marlene: Well, and we have talked to other overseers. I mean, we'll, we...

Jim: You told us that you talked to two and you took their consensus and...

Marlene: Well, we've talked, no, no, Jim, we've talked to more than two overseers, haven't we, Dale. We've talked to more...

Dale: Wait, wait, uh, Jim,.

Jim: ...you never told us....

Dale: ...uh, our decision is that we have to have more time.

Marlene: We have to have more time.

Jim: We will not give you that time.

Marlene: We have got to have more time, Jim; we haven't had time to pray.

Dale: And so, so, we will have to leave it at that and, uh, we'll, uh, get back with you, and uh,

Marlene: You give us a number that we can call you.

Jim: No, I'm sorry...

Dale: And, uh,...

Jim: you gave your word, and you chose the time at 8 o'clock

Dale: That's all we can do.

Marlene: Because, Jim, when somebody...

Dale: Oh,...

Jim: The decision is made...(not able to decipher)

Dale: Jim, Jim and Gwen, one thing I want you to know is that I'm taping this re-information, this ah, message...

Jim: You are?

Dale: Yes.

Marlene: Yeah, we are.

Jim: That is deceitful!

Marlene: Ok, um,

Jim: That is totally deceitful.

Marlene: Ok, ok, Jim?

Dale: No, no, there's nothing, if everything you've said is true...

Jim: You never told us at the beginning of this conversation...

Marlene: Ok

Dale: That doesn't make any difference, does it?

Jim: No,

Marlene: Ok, Jim, I wanna tell you...

Dale: Ok, well then,...

Jim: ...I am going to spread this around...

Marlene: Ok

Dale: Yeah, you spread it around...

Jim: ...you have illegally taped a conversation without telling us

Dale: I did tell you so that's ah,... (beep)

Jim: ...that an elder and an elder's wife is totally deceitful and dishonest...

Dale: yeah

Marlene: Ok, ok

Jim: ...I have no concept...

Dale: Uh, Jim, I'm still recording this

Jim: That's fine.

Dale: ...yeah...

Jim: I, what I have said...

Dale: yeah...

Jim: ...is on that tape...

Dale: that's right. What you have said is on this tape at the very last...

Marlene: ...that you're going to pass it around...yeah, ok, go ahead...

Jim: yep, you can pass it around...

Dale: ...no, no, you're going to...

Jim: No.

End of recording...
Workers responsible for the mess in Alberta


Willis Propp
Overseer


Jim Knipe


Gwen Fipke
Check out these books about the 2x2 church!
Click on the book images at right to learn more about each book.


Click on the book images at right to learn more about each book.

Cult to Christ: The Church With No Name and the Legacy of the Living Witness Doctrine

Elizabeth was born and raised in a nameless and secretive worldwide cult that claims exclusive origin from the New Testament apostolic ministry and blatantly describes all other churches as 'false'. A fourth generation member, she professed faith at the age of sixteen and fully intended to remain there, even when she discovered that the system she believed in was based on a lie. A love story both human and divine, a journey from spiritual bondage to freedom in Christ; this confronting and deeply personal account gives an inside perspective into the mindset of cult members, and reveals the fear and trauma associated with being forced to investigate your own beliefs even if it could mean destroying the very foundations of everything you believe.

The author, Elizabeth Coleman, is one of our moderators at the TLC Forum!
Click on the book images at right to learn more about each book.

Reflections: The Workers, the Gospel and the Nameless House Sect

This is the first of a series exploring the varied experiences of those who have come out of a supposedly nameless, world-wide religion which has managed to elude the attention of outsiders for much of its history. The accounts collected here have been written by former members, worker/ministers, and relatives. Together, they present a fascinating and rare glimpse into a religious system all but unknown to outsiders. Most of the former members who have written here were passionate believers in "The Way," before being jarred into reexamination by encounters with serious issues and inconsistencies. Far from being a clinical examination, these accounts are sometimes stirring, even heart-rending, and always bear the stamp of genuine personal experience.
Click on the book images at right to learn more about each book.

Reinventing the Truth: Historical Claims of One of the World's Largest Nameless Sects

They meet in homes and in rented halls, presided over by itinerant preachers known as "Workers." This religious fellowship usually goes under the names listed above, although its members vigorously deny that the group bears any name. As to its origins, the group positions itself as being a direct continuation of "the New Testament Church." And even though they deny having any organizational structure, the activities of this nameless sect are world-wide in scope.

It is often very difficult for the outsider to gain any concrete knowledge of this group's doctrine, structure, or history. Reinventing the Truth examines these issues, focusing on the historical explanations the group has offered for its origins.
Click on the book images at right to learn more about each book.

The Church Without a Name

This secretive group has been called by various names over the years: The Two-by-Twos, White Mice, Black Stockings, Pilgrims, The Meeting, The Workers, The Truth, the Secret Sect, Die Namenlosen, Les Anonymes and many others. But they claim no name of their own. Outside of the group, little has been known of the ways and the diverse belief found among believers in this homespun religion. Here is a book that exposes the origins and the unwritten traditions of the Two-by-Twos. The purpose of this book is to summarize the teachings of this religious group in order to encourage people to draw nearer to and obey God. It is an attempt to bring to light what the workers have tried to hide from the public for over a century. These are doctrines and behaviors that have been observed and learned by an ex-member whose family has been part of the group for five generations, since the founding of the religion in the late 1890s.
Click on the book images at right to learn more about each book.

Reflected Truth: Former Workers and Followers Unmask Life in a Large, Little-Known Sect

TLT Home | Top of Page
Any church which bases its origin on a LIE — or conceals its history in a cover-up — has no business calling itself the "TRUTH."
IF THE HISTORY OF THE 2X2 CHURCH IS UNIMPORTANT, THEN WHY LIE ABOUT IT?
Heavenly Father, we pray for John that his eyes might be opened and that he might be set free from the bondage of being a worker.